CuriousGuts: When I was reading your profile I found out that you have been working from 90’s and are coming with breakthroughs every one or two years. In fact every alternate year with an unconventional observation. When did it all start? When did your interest started in science?
Dr.Grewal: My personal interest in science started probably very long time ago. My father was an entomologist and he would often show me things, like insects which can exploit their plant host, I don’t know if you have seen that on the leaf surface the insect would lay the eggs and then the whole leaf would curl up. They produce certain enzymes that force the plant cells to follow their cues. So, my father would show me all those sorts of thing which made me very curious. But, off-course that is just a curiosity, that does not translate into you doing breakthrough research or even triggering you to be a scientist. But, that was the first time I got curious about how things work? How does nature really work? I sort of continued on with that and during my graduate school days.
But I think the question you touched in the first part about how would you go around addressing some key questions in the field that could potentially lead to breakthrough stories, that I think is something I learnt from my post-doctorate mentor Dr. Klar. He was off-corse of Indian origin and he passed away unfortunately too soon few weeks ago. He often would tell us that if you are going to be spending time doing research, you might well address a question, an important question in the field. Off-course, important question are often the difficult questions. I learnt that from him that don’t shy away, make an attempt and follow your own instincts and see if you could address those.
CuriousGuts: Like they say in war, you have to go in the direction where all the guns are blowing but in academia, if you go away from them you are bound to touch something important, as written by Edward O Wilson. All of your career seems to be shaped by this phrase. This phrase can aptly describe your work.
Dr.Grewal: One of the things which I do in lab, we often start with a small, simple observation. I could give you many examples of that. The most recent example, the UPD story, that I described to you in my talk. It was 1999 or 2000 that I was doing some genetic analysis of RNAi mutants, I noticed that they do weird segregation and so for many years tried to convince my postdocs and nobody would go near that project because it was sort of not so easy to address that. So, I would try to do little bit of work here and there myself but the key point is that it started with a simple observation I made. We pursued that simple observation and it turned out to be an important observation, which led to a nice important story. that’s the way it has always been. we don’t go telling ourselves that I need to work on a project that would be a major story but we pursue observations which are from our own lab and we try to develop them, follow them and see where they take us. In my career I have been fortunate that they have often led to something important.

CuriousGuts: How do you deal with the avalanche of ideas. There are so many question. How do you prioritise which idea should be explored first? which hypothesis should be tested first before others? Doesn’t it keep you awake all the night?
Dr.Grewal: (Chuckles) There are many other things which keep me awake off-course, this is one of them. But prioritising science and your ideas is a very important thing. You really should be able to separate out in your mind what are the key fundamental observations that you would like to pursue or the questions you would like to pursue and I often do that in my quiet spare time at home. I like to work late at night and sometimes, it's a good time to go back, look at everything and then see where the key questions are. So, I don’t go around that I should do this project first or that project. I just go back and look at all the observations we have made in the lab and things which people have shared with me and look back at the key question which we should focus. Then, I would write that down, think about it and then arrange a meeting with my fellows and say, this is what I came across in my mind. I think we should be focusing on this. I ask “what do you think? Off-course, they are the one who will spend time working on them, they are important partners. and once we discuss that we come up with a plan. We would come up with a two or three set of questions and then pursue those and if we get encouraging results off-course then that defines the entire project.
CuriousGuts: How did the seed of heterochromatin got planted in your head? As you mentioned in one of your articles that it is an oxymoron, you specifically mentioned about the transcription happening inside heterochromatin. We rarely get an example of oxymoron in strict biological sense but I think this makes through it. How were able to think something this unconventional?
Dr.Grewal: This goes back to my graduate school days at Cambridge. I would often hear people talk gene expression where transcription factor comes to gene and turns the gene on or off. I would often also hear, Jean Thomas taught chromatin biology at Cambridge and she would often talk about large domains of gene silencing. Although, in those days most of these things were defined genetically. The genes are off but nobody really knew the structures and modifications. So, I developed this idea that I am going to work on a domain level control of gene expression. Then I looked around and I came across some articles where my post doc mentor Dr.Klar’s lab had published that there is a domain in Schizosaccharomyces pombe genome which is fairly large in yeast cells 20-30 kb large and you never see any recombination happening in those domains. So, it is recombinationally cold.
You never see meiotic recombination happening. So, I wrote to him, Do you know what exactly happens? that why is that large domain not doing any recombination? In yeast 3 kb is one centimorgan. Every 3 kb should give you a certain level of recombination events. He replied me back that you know “Do you want to work on that?” So, I went naively thinking that he has a region cloned and I am going to find out exactly what is happening there. He told me that No, they actually do not have that region cloned. In fact the genome project working with pombe genome doesn't’ work with strain those have that region, cenH repeats. So, I cloned the whole thing by hand and I sequenced it by hand. All the 30 kb. I found a repeat element. Other postdocs made fun of that there is not even a gene to work on. So, I pursued that repeat element, I deleted it and it affected silencing in that entire domain. Later on, the same repeats turned out to be target of RNAi and many things pursued from there. Once I knew that the large domain is controlled by repeats, So it led to the mapping of histone modifications, that pattern of modification later on turned out to be conserved in mammals.
But just to give you a taste of what I mentioned in my talk also, I got ridiculed many times by other members of my lab who would often tell me that there is nothing really there for me to work on and I am wasting my time. I stuck to my belief and pursued to that and it became my career.
CuriousGuts: Yes, a lot of times young researchers, many friends of mine feel let down. How did you keep it up?
Dr.Grewal: If you think you are upto something. Your own thinking and your own belief is more important. Rather than other people define questions for you, you have to define them for yourself. By that I mean, you have to believe in yourself.
CuriousGuts: and the repeat story which you were narrating was also discussed in Proceedings of National Academy Q/A section also.
Dr.Grewal: Yes, yes.
CuriousGuts: Has it ever occurred to you that hypothesis which you are building for yourself and find online that there has been work which has already been done, Has it ever happened with you?
Dr.Grewal: Science is a collaborative endeavour. No one person is going to figure out every thing, We all feed of other people, things we do other people build on them. Other people do certain things which i learn from. So, at the end of the day I look at science more like this. There are important questions in biology. Epigenetics is hot field now. We need the answers to those questions, So that we could make progress. Now, one brain only can do so much. All the brain powers put together, we could accomplish more. So, I am happy if other people are making progress particularly at this point of my scientific career. I am happy that other people are picking up on things we work on and other they work on. It is important from the young scientist point of view that their ideas are unique in the sense that they can pursue their scientific careers but science again is a very very collaborative endeavour. We shouldn’t be afraid of other people making progress. We should look at it in fact, we have a common goal. How can we help each other get there.

CuriousGuts: One of the first breakthrough which you achieved was that if we silence RNAi machinery in fission yeast we see that heterochromatin regions do not form. Second, there is absence of small interfering RNA. So how did you connect these dots?
Dr.Grewal: We do everything in lab which starts with some genetics. We knocked out RNAi factors and we noticed heterochromatin defects. In fact, I noticed the first observation that the segregation 0 to 4, 4 to 0 segregation. In previous times people have argued that defects in heterochromatin assembly could give you segregation defects. Although those segregation defects are different. So it was sort of one of those things, lets see what happens. It had heterochromatin defects, and we had just found the pathway where we had shown methylation of Lysine 9 , HP-1 recruitment, so, we studied all that. We had already seen artefacts in all that. But we had not picked any small RNA at that time. In parallel, their was work published from Criag Mello lab who did his screen in Ceanorhabditis elegans and he identified C.elegans argonoute in his screens for RNA- defective mutants. So, when his paper came out we realised that we are working with argonoute which is required for small RNA, RNAi and all other stuffs. So, we learned from their work. (that is in 2002) Yes, this is related to your earlier question. Two labs pursuing something totally different directions help each other. He wasn't studying heterochromatin, he was studying RNAi. We were studying heterochromatin. His identification of argonoute as RNAi factor helped us realise that we are working with RNAi factor. So we linked RNAi to heterochromatin. And in all that your observations are key to all this.
CuriousGuts: But after some time in one of your research publication you showed that RNAi-independent heterochromatin formation also takes place at low efficiency. So, were you able to detect basal level transcripts when you earlier published in 2002?
Dr.Grewal: When you delete RNAi machinery or you delete the element on which RNAi acts, predominantly at MAT Locus. You still have stochastic low level formation of heterochromatin. which once assembled can stay there for very long time. So we knew there got to be another pathway bringing heterochromatin in that region.
CuriousGuts: So you knew at that time that parallel mechanism exists?
Dr.Grewal: The genetics told us there got to be one because in absence of RNAi cells could form heterochromatin but at a very low level and in a stochastic manner we realised that there got to be another pathway. So the question was what that is and one of my post doctoral fellow was able to figure out those transcription factors. I realised that these Transcription Factors have become a very hot topic now, In flies they find that those factors are required for reprogramming gene expression and many other labs pursuing these factors.
CuriousGuts: One of your observation was that transcription factors were binding but not extending. The localization TF III without polymerase RNA pol III binding. why didn’t RNA pol III got extended?
Dr.Grewal: That is totally different to forming heterochromatin. that is more to do with how do you restrict heterochromatin in a given domain. So, a different postdoc Noma identified these boundary elements when he mapped the whole modification map and he found these abrupt ends. One side is heterochromatin and other side is euchromatin. So, he found these boundaries and he went after trying to find whats really forming those boundaries and he identified that there is a binding site for TF IIIC and for some strange reasons he found that TF III C alone. I think simple answer to that is in addition to TF IIIC there are additional things which are required to recruit RNA Pol III. So, TF III alone is not sufficient to bring pol III.
CuriousGuts: One of your another observation in which HDAC’s (Histone Deacetylase). clr6, were identified as of two types one binds on the promotor of the genes and other on the centromeres. How were you able to detect those two different types of clr because they might have looked the same?
Dr.Grewal: So the way you do it is, we start out with genetics. I did a screen many years ago and identified these mutations. To find exactly about what they do we go through a systematic analysis scheme. we purified them and found out that they were in separate complexes. we then tried to find out where those complexes were localised and we found by ChIP-chip analysis that they were localised to different places in the genome. That’s the sort of scheme we followed. As their subunits were different we have used them to target their complex.

CuriousGuts: One of the predominant theories of the 80’s was selfish gene in which gene is a selfish unit and it wants to survive even at the cost of host. One of your paper focused on centromeric protein B. One of the most beautiful observation regarding its activity to stop the extinct transposon from entering the genome. when did you know about this? It perplexed me completely.
Dr.Grewal: The fact that it was so perplexing, thats why the paper is published as an article in Nature. That is called host genome defence by transposon derived proteins. So, what the transposon which are being recognised by CENP-Bs transposases are slightly different, these are transposes derived CENP-Bs proteins which are targeting another class of transposons. So, I first though that this is something which is special happening in evolution but I have been told that by evolutionary biologists that this has happened more than once in evolution where the transposon derived protein is used by host are being given a function where they are doing something really interesting. So, we found in that paper this is work of H Cam, who used to be in my lab. He found when he mapped them, unlike their names centromere binding proteins B they were actually binding to retro-elements and they recruited HDAC’s. to silence retrotransposons.
CuriousGuts: How many more of these unknown elements are waiting for their discoveries in our genome!
Dr.Grewal: As I told you in my lab things start with simple observations. Now, how many of those are important observations that would lead to some of the important discoveries. I could not really comment. It will all come out as the time progresses.

CuriousGuts: Another beautiful observation about the timing of phospho- methy- switch. There is very brief timing in which all of that happens. How does that become accessible for brief period of time?
Dr.Grewal: The original observation that the phospho- mark next to methyl- mark on serine 10 lysine 9 respectively, was work from other group. They found that the phosphorylation mark on the serine next to lysine 9 could neutralise the silencing effect and chromodomain proteins cannot bind methyl- mark and there is no assembly of heterochromatin, that disrupts heterochromatin formation. It turns out that phosphorylation happens by aurora kinases during mitosis. So, that disrupts heterochromatin, so that other factors could come by and bind to that. But we build that case on other group and that wasn't really a straight out work from us. We just used that in context of cell cycle control of heterochromatin.
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Dr. Shiv Grewal giving a talk at our university. |
CuriousGuts: You showed that if there is premature termination, those transcripts could be used for heterochromatin silencing?
Dr.Grewal: That is a very important question. One of the major conundrum in the field that if a transcription is required for forming heterochromatin then why aren’t we building heterochromatin on any genes because those are transcribed too? what defines a transcription which is feeding into heterochromatin versus transcription which is producing a novel functional transcript? So, V R Chalamcharla in my lab did some work to figure exactly that. He found that the transcription which is giving a heterochromatin, there is a one big difference. In normal transcription of any gene you have a transcription initiating from a promoter and Pol II travels all the way to the end of the gene, to a termination site. Termination factors are assembled, they release the pol II and transcript is released as functional mRNA. He found that one which were building heterochromatin were different were not terminated by same termination factors. They were terminated by MTRAK RNAi. RNAi and MTRAK somehow, as I mentioned cryptic introns and DSR motifs binding site for some of these factors. When a transcript is being made, if cell sees a motif they bind there. RNA binding proteins bind their and recruit bunch of these factors. They do two things :- they terminate pol II which is not at a normal termination sequence, they assemble another specialised complex and at the same time they degrade the RNA. So, the RNA degradation and non-canonical termination, which is done by different set of factors is a way by which cells can differentiate functional transcript from transcript for heterochromatin formation.
CuriousGuts: So RNA dependent RNA polymerases forms a double stranded which is substrate for this type of mechanism. but this enzyme is not present in us. Is there any homologue in human?
Dr.Grewal: Thats very important enzyme. Even though they are not present in us the PIWI pathways and these small RNA’s based pathways are still present. You probably had heard about the ping-pong model of argonoute. Those sorts of mechanisms do exists which can bypass the requirement of RNA dependent RNA polymerases. So small RNAs get amplified through different mechanisms. Plants, C.elegans, Schizosacchromyces Pombe these all have RNA dependent RNA polymerases but other systems have different ways of doing this.
CuriousGuts: Thank you so much for your time.
Dr.Grewal: Thank you.